50 Years Later: The Fight for Tax Transparency

David Stewart: 0:02

Welcome to the podcast. I'm David Stewart, editor in chief of Tax Notes Today International. This week: a milestone. Tax Analysts, the publisher of Tax Notes, turns 50 this year. As everyone who has marked a milestone in the past few months knows, celebrations have been a bit low key and socially distanced. So this week, instead of cake and balloons, we're going to talk a little bit about how this company came about, where it's been, and where it's going. In a few minutes, we'll hear from Tax Analysts CEO Cara Griffith. But first, joining me now is senior executive editor for news and research Chuck O'Toole. Chuck, welcome to the podcast.

Chuck O'Toole: 1:35

Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me.

David Stewart: 1:36

Now, we both started here at Tax Notes in 2007, and things have definitely changed a lot since then, but much more so since the beginning of the organization. Could you tell us a bit about what we're marking here in the 50th anniversary year?

Chuck O'Toole: 1:49

Well, as you said, there's been a lot of changes at Tax Analysts over the years and that was one of the things I wanted to talk with Cara about in our conversation. How has the company grown up, so to speak, from when it was a tiny operation in one man's basement into the organization we see today? So, we dove into that. And also touched on her experience leading this company through this crazy year we're all having here. Plus, she had an exciting announcement about a new initiative that we're going to be undertaking in the next few months here on tax transparency. So, I think folks will find it an exciting interview.

David Stewart: 2:19

All right, let's go to that conversation.

Chuck O'Toole: 2:23

So Cara, thanks so much for joining us here.

Cara Griffith: 2:25

Oh, it's my pleasure.

Chuck O'Toole: 2:26

So, we're talking about Tax Analysts' 50th anniversary today. And first off, I guess, what a crazy year to have that fall in. Right?

Cara Griffith: 2:35

Oh my gosh. This year has gone nothing like anyone expected.

Chuck O'Toole: 2:40

Absolutely. I mean, the pandemic, it's just thrown everything off. And I'm just curious: from where you sit, how do you feel like Tax Analysts has weathered this crisis?

Cara Griffith: 2:50

You know, I have to say I'm really impressed with how well we have weathered this crisis. What I had planned for 2020, very little of it has really occurred because we've just had to switch so rapidly and, and focus on something else. And the pandemic created this level of crisis that really wasn't just a momentary event and it kept going and it's been a yearlong thing. But overall, I have to say that we really weathered it well. We were in a good position to move our operations remote and to do that very quickly. We had taken steps in previous years really to accommodate if we ever had inclement weather and we had to do all of our publishing remotely. So, everyone was prepped and ready. It's just that we had anticipated, you know, like we get snowed in for a day or two. Not that there's going to be a global pandemic and we're going to all be working remotely for quite so long. But overall, you know, operations are going well. Things are running smoothly. I am always imminently impressed with the Tax Analysts staff. They really are the best. They work harder than you would ever expect. And in this environment, they have been flexible and really shown how dedicated and hardworking they are and how much they care about the products. I think the products have not suffered at all and maybe are even better than ever. So, I really feel like we were very lucky to be in the position that we're in and we've weathered the year so far quite well.

Chuck O'Toole: 4:05

That's really good to hear. I'm just curious, as CEO in this unprecedented situation, I mean, what was it like having to make decisions for a whole company in such uncharted waters?

Cara Griffith: 4:18

It was hard. I won't even sugar coat it. It was one of those where you want to make the right decision the first time. And you always want the staff to understand that you're making the decision in their best interest and you make it decisively. But we didn't have a playbook for this. There really was nothing that we could lean on and say,"Well, this has worked in the past and this has not." And so, I tried particularly early on really to do that over-communicating and then acknowledge,"OK. So, I made a call yesterday. As it turns out today, that wasn't the right call. And now we have to pivot and here's why." And so I try to be transparent and honest about the decisions that I was making, because really there was nothing that I could look at and say,"This is going to work in this instance." And it was hard. And I still do worry about the staff. And you know, more from a mental health perspective of either people that are alone and don't have anyone else with them, parents that are trying to teach their children while working. You know, we're all adding extra stresses on to it. So how long can we bear that? And those are some of the things that weigh heavily on me, and I think about, and try to figure out what can I do as a CEO? What can I do as a leader to say,"It's going to be OK. And here's why. Here's what I can do to help alleviate some of that stress." So it's definitely still a work in progress. I'm grateful that the staff has been as flexible as they have and receptive to some of the changes that have really occurred on the fly.

Chuck O'Toole: 5:36

Yeah. Yeah. I think folks have definitely appreciated the amount of communication that we've had and that's been really good across the board for the staff. So, here we are at the 50-year mark. And let me ask, are we done? Does the world still need a Tax Analysts? And if so, why?

Cara Griffith: 5:53

Yes. The world still needs a Tax Analysts. Without a doubt. And they need a Tax Analysts because we do so many things. At the end of the day, we serve as an educator, we provide a forum for debate, and we serve as a watchdog. And all of those are really, truly necessary in order to ultimately have that good debate and end up with good tax policy that leads to good tax administration. So, you know, we strive to educate our readers every day by explaining facts in a logical fashion, making difficult issues comprehensible to the extent that we can, at least by presenting,"Here's what happened. Here's what everyone is saying." And that being said, we don't dumb down our stories ever. In one read of any Tax Notes publication is evidence of that. That we tackle those hard technical issues that really need to be covered. And there are issues that are best covered by a publication like Tax Notes that is so familiar with the issues. You're not going to get this in the mainstream press. We also challenge our readers to think broadly, and to be exposed to a wide variety of different views and opinions. We're not in the business of cherry picking our views and opinions. We put them all out there. Even those may not be all that popular. So really we are that educator. And then by doing that, we are the forum for debate. So, we keep the conversation going. Tom Field, our founder, it was his true belief that out of that debate, out of that clash of opinions, good tax policy is going to come. And I will say, I drank the Kool-Aid years ago. And I truly believe that. It's that you really need to be able to go out and vet all of the issues and acknowledge opinions that aren't your own, and that maybe you don't agree with. But to take a look at them, to understand, to see where the other side is coming from. It's really just so important. And then, you know, Tax Analysts has, for many years, served as a watchdog for both taxing authorities and public institutions. You know, we've been engaged in numerous lawsuits over the years. We've also scrutinized a lot of private institutions. And that's an important role that a journalism outlet like ours serves. So yeah, without a doubt, there's as much of a need for Tax Analysts today as it was when Tom founded the organization.

Chuck O'Toole: 8:00

So, where do you see the next big challenges in tax transparency then? I mean, you referenced some of the lawsuits we've done over the years. Are there any areas that you think could use more attention from an organization like ours?

Cara Griffith: 8:12

That's a good question and I think about this one quite a lot. It's hard to predict the next transparency challenge. I feel like a lot of times they find us. And in many ways we fight the same fight year after year. So I think for Tax Analysts, some of it is just continuing to cover and watch, watch for different types of guidance. I do think that informal guidance in the form of email is replacing some of the formal guidance that we are accustomed to. But it does take a careful watching on things like that to notice that, well, the number of this type of guidance has dropped over the course of the last two years. Now, what does that mean? It's not that they're not giving as many opinions. So it's just coming out someplace else. There's some level of trying to figure out and find where the taxing authorities are going. And I think we'll also need to expand our outreach a little bit more too, and hit state and international issues. International will be a very tough nut to crack from a transparency perspective in some ways because we're not as familiar with the laws in other countries. It's nice here in the states where we have FOIA. States, in general, will have some sort of law that is very similar modeled around FOIA. So, it's a little hard to predict. There's one out there and I look forward to it. That's a big part of Tax Analysts history and it really feels good sometimes to find those and then to figure it out. I had a practitioner once tell me that I had changed the face of transparency in state tax administration. And at one point, I kind of chuckled at it and I was like,"I didn't have that big of an impact." And he's like,"No, you did." Then, I thought about it and we've had a lot of reporters or editors over the years who've had that kind of an impact on enabling taxpayers, enabling the public to have access to the same guidance that the big companies can get. And that these taxing authorities are using internally as what's guiding them during an audit. So it is a fun part of what we do.

Chuck O'Toole: 10:02

Yeah. That's a great history to look back on. It does make me think about something we've kind of heard from time to time, too. I mean, obviously a lot can change in a place over 50 years and I think we both heard the occasional criticism about Tax Analysts. That we've gone corporate. We're not that scrappy little underground operation we were 20 or 30 years ago. What is your response to that argument?

Cara Griffith: 10:24

You know, I would have to say in some ways it's true. We are not that scrappy little underground organization that we once were. We're no longer in the basement of Tom's house. We're no longer in the building that we affectionately called the Taj, but it was not even remotely. We are officially a force to be reckoned with. We, I think in the last couple of decades, have begun to really take ourselves and what we do very seriously. You know, we have some tremendous people that work at Tax Analysts. Our contributors are among the best in the business. And we also compete head to head every day with large, well-funded for-profit companies. And so we have to take ourselves seriously. And our readers expect high-quality, digital publications, print publications. They also expect regular enhancements and with more frequency now I hear the word innovation. So they are thinking about that as well. And so for us, with the size that we are, for us to be agile enough to bring innovative solutions to our readers requires that we not fly by the seat of our pants. We sort of have to think ahead. We have to plan. We have to be ready to implement. With that being said, the heart and soul of Tax Analysts has not changed. I think we are still a group of people who question every piece of information we are given. In my mind, we are still respectfully disagreeable, which was my favorite of our slogans over the years.

Chuck O'Toole: 11:44

Mine, too.

Cara Griffith: 11:45

Right? It was a good one. We still are that group of people that are always willing to ask the hard questions. We're willing to push for access to documents. We're willing to go head to head with agencies. We're still committed to the best journalism, the best publications that we can. So, you know, for all of the fact that we do have to plan, we do have to be able to implement and provide readers with what they need. We're not giving up on our roots, at least not while I get to be in the seat that I'm in. We are coming off of a couple of financially challenging years. We had a relationship end with a large reseller. And so, we did have to take some years and really think about,"How do we replace that revenue? And what can we do? And how do we grow the organization?" As we've kind of gotten through that, I don't think we've ever lost sight of the fact that we also serve the tax community. And as we move into our next five, 10, 50 years, I also want to take a hard look at how can we serve the tax community broadly? How can we serve the public? And so, even though we've now gotten to a place where we are financially sound and we have processes and procedures in place, we're still Tax Analysts. And now we're in a terrific place where we don't have to give up on our roots and we can actually go out and serve the community better.

Chuck O'Toole: 12:55

So that's a really good segue there, I think, because I think we have a new initiative that you wanted to talk a bit about today. Is that right?

Cara Griffith: 13:05

Yeah. So I'm excited about this one. Earlier in the year, and this is kind of goes with some of the 50th anniversary things that we were trying to do that sort of got overshadowed by the whole pandemic. Earlier in the year, we put our code and regs outside of the paywall, and that really was a first effort for us. And so, going forward, we will be looking to put additional content, in fact, most federal tax-related law and guidance will be outside of the paywall. This is a fundamental change for Tax Analysts, but really takes us to a place that feels right. You know, a lot of these documents that when you look at private letter rulings, back in 1972, we sued to get these documents. Well, it's only fitting that in our 50th year, we are able to say,"Let's make it so that all of those documents that we have acquired are available to anyone at any point who needs them." And so, it's a really nice way of taking a hard look at what can we do? And that's one thing we definitely can. We sue for access to documents, and now we make them available to everyone.

Chuck O'Toole: 14:02

That's terrific. I mean, that's going to be such a great resource for the tax community as a whole, I think, to have that much content. And just so we're clear, you're talking federal law and guidance, and it'll be our archives, too. Right? It won't just be going forward?

Cara Griffith: 14:17

That's right.

Chuck O'Toole: 14:17

Wow. I mean, that's quite a library that's going to be opening up for free. So, wow. Do we have a timeline or next couple of months here, or when do you expect to see that roll out?

Cara Griffith: 14:27

We're hopeful to have by the end of the calendar year, but given how technology projects tend to go, we're having right now our 50th anniversary virtual celebration on February 10. So that's kind of the date in my head that I'm looking at to have all this done. That we would be able to roll it out and actually really celebrate that as well as the organization come February.

Chuck O'Toole: 14:49

And can you talk about that celebration?

Cara Griffith: 14:51

Yeah. So we had planned to have just a really nice, large event in April of this year and that didn't happen. So, we had initially postponed it, hoping that by December we would be able to do an in-person event. And that is just not a reality right now. And even in the spring, it was difficult to say that we would be able to have, and people would feel comfortable having, a large in-person event. So, we have decided to change our events and have it on February 10. It will be a virtual event. I'm still very excited about it. I was looking forward to having an in-person event and meeting a few of the founders of the organization that I had not met before. And I was really excited about that. But one of the beauties of some of the virtual, really a lot of the virtual things that we've done right now, is that we get to connect to so many more people. So, this will enable us to have a lot more people viewing. We will be honoring Larry Gibbs, a longtime pillar in the tax community. He's been on the Tax Analysts board. He was IRS commissioner. He's just an all-around terrific guy. So it's going to be nice to give him a bit of honor as well. It'll be fun. We get to have some additional speakers. You'll see more faces on the screen, I think, than you would have seen on the stage. So, there is that silver lining in having a virtual event as opposed to an in-person event. So, we're excited. It'll be a lot of fun.

Chuck O'Toole: 16:04

Great. And again, that's February 10 is the date for that?

Cara Griffith: 16:07

That's right. February 10.

Chuck O'Toole: 16:12

Real quick, just wanted to maybe shift it to something a little bit more personal here. I mean, you just passed your three-year mark as CEO, and as you've mentioned in a LinkedIn post, you've had five different business cards over 15 years at TA, I think that's right?

Cara Griffith: 17:19

Yep, yep. That's right.

Chuck O'Toole: 17:22

So, what's it been like to take the reins as CEO after such a long history with the company? And have there been any surprises or things you'd wished you'd known before going in?

Cara Griffith: 17:30

Oh, wow. That's the million dollar question. You know, honestly it has been, it's been a tremendous experience. I don't think anyone could have prepared me for the first year. It truly was just a whirlwind where the learning curve is steep and every day is different and every day presented a new challenge. So, there were some days where I was just on top of the world and seeing my name on the outside of the CEO office, it was really, really special. You know, there were other days when I would shut my door and I would put my head in my hands. Like,"I may have bit off more than I can chew." But it's been just an amazing experience. I feel like I was given such a rare opportunity to make my own mark on the organization that started my career. And that I think is something that's very unique and it really is really special. I do care so deeply about the company. And I feel like I've been fully vested in its success for a lot longer than I've been CEO. I mentioned earlier that I drank the Kool-Aid, and I do totally feel that. It was, you know, I believe in the mission of the company. I believe in the importance of what we do. And now I get the opportunity to make sure that we continue on and that we become better. I also care deeply about the staff. I think that's something having grown up, so to speak, at the organization that I still know a lot of the people, and I've worked with them in various capacities. And so, I really care about their success and about them personally, which has made the pandemic even more fun is that I do worry about the staff. I want to make sure everybody's OK. Everyone's feeling good. The people at Tax Analysts have always been what makes it just so enjoyable to come to work. And I have a lot of friends at the company. And so, it's been an amazing three years. And I actually can't believe it's been that long. It feels like yesterday.

Chuck O'Toole: 19:14

Yeah, it does go back quick doesn't it?

Cara Griffith: 19:16

It does.

Chuck O'Toole: 19:16

So, I guess one last question then. When all is said and done, what do you want your legacy to be at Tax Analysts?

Cara Griffith: 19:22

That's a hard question. You know, in some ways, in many ways, it's a moving target. My immediate goal for legacy, three years ago when I took the job, was to simply lead Tax Analysts through transition from its reliance, and quite heavy reliance, on a large reseller contract to a place where the loss of a single subscriber doesn't threaten the overall survival of the organization. So, truly at that point, I wanted my legacy to be that I have set Tax Analysts up for another 50 years of existence. Very thankfully that goal is so far underway and it happened a lot faster than what I expected. I thought it was really, this is going to be kind of a long haul. And as it turns out, it really happened relatively well. I was able to get the right people in the right roles. Our sales staff and our marketing staff really just crushed it. And so, I kind of was left thinking,"Well, now I need a new legacy. You know, it turns out people really do appreciate and need Tax Analysts." And so, what then? And so, I spent some time. And truly now what I want my legacy to be is to, yes ensure that Tax Analysts is around for another 50 years, but also to ensure that Tax Analysts remains true to its roots and to its past while paying it forward. So, you know, in the coming months and years, we're going to focus on how can we serve the tax community better? How can we serve the public? You know, one start with that is making more primary and secondary law available to all. But what comes next? We will continue to foster an informed debate through our publications, through our webinars, conferences, podcasts. You name it, we'll try it. We will continue to press for the disclosure of documents. We won't waiver on that. But what also? You know, what else? What can we do to better serve the whole community? So, I think that that is where my legacy will ultimately be. So, I wrote down this quote. Tom once wrote, and I quote,"Our publications are our principle means of public service. We seek through these publications to provide a forum for the discussion of a wide variety of tax proposals. Our faith is that sound public policy will emerge out of the interplay of ideas in a public forum." And so I truly believe in that vision. And I believe it is still as relevant today as it was 50 years ago. Tax Analysts best serves the public by getting the information out, serving as a forum. But there's more to that. And that, I think, is what I really want my legacy to be is to help Tax Analysts shine, to raise its profile, and to take it into that next place where we are serving the tax community. We're serving our readers. And in some way, we are serving the public. So, you know, that is my ultimate hope. It's still a work in progress. I guess I'm only three years in, so I still have some time, but that is really where I hope my legacy will be.

Chuck O'Toole: 22:07

Terrific. Well, I think this new free documents project I think is a great step in that direction and really looking forward to seeing how the tax world responds to it. Anything else you want to add before we wrap up here, Cara?

Cara Griffith: 22:21

This has been, it's been a lot of fun. It's fun to look back at the organization. I think people will appreciate it. At our gala in February, we will have a video in which Tom plays a big part. And I think it will be a lot of fun to look at this last 50 years of Tax Analysts history from Tom's perspective. I went back to the house where it all started and all of that fun stuff. And it was really interesting to hear his perspective on it and his take and how things came about. And so, I think that's going to be a lot of fun for readers. And for those that don't know Tax Analysts as well to look at where did the idea come from? And how did we get from where we were to where we are? It's a fun story. And it was nice to get it from Tom's perspective.

Chuck O'Toole: 23:00

Looking forward to seeing that. That'll be great. All right. Well, thank you so much for your time here, Cara. This has been a really good conversation.

Cara Griffith: 23:06

Absolutely. Thank you. This was fun.

David Stewart: 23:10

And now, coming attractions. Each week we highlight new and interesting commentary in our magazines. Joining me now from her home is Acquisitions and Engagement Editor in Chief Faye McCray. Faye, what will you have for us?

Faye McCray: 23:20

Thank you, Dave. In Tax Notes State, Tram Le examines initiatives designed to reduce compliance burdens associated with state and local sales taxes for remote sellers. Four practitioners from EY summarize New York’s Article 9-A tax regulation process. In Tax Notes International, Kerrie Sadiq and Richard Krever explain the compromise approach developed by courts when setting transfer prices for transactions for which there are no actual comparable arm's-length prices. Peter Boerhof examines the use of electronic invoicing and compliance measures for the EU VAT. On the Opinions page, Robert Goulder, Martin Sullivan, and Joseph Thorndike delve into the details of the presidential candidates’ tax proposals. Roxanne Bland examines instances when the separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches are blurred. Robert Goulder examines how the president-elect would change the GILTI rules enacted as part of the TCJA. And now, for a closer look at what's new and noteworthy in our magazines here is Tax Notes Federal Editor in Chief Ariel Greenblum.

Ariel Greenblum: 24:25

Thanks Faye. I'm here with Kimberly Clausing, who will be joining the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law in January. We're going to discuss her upcoming piece,"Five Lessons on Profit Shifting from the US Country by Country Data," which will be published in the November 9 issue of Tax Notes Federal. Kim is joining us by phone. Welcome to the podcast, Kim.

Kim Clausing: 24:49

Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here.

Ariel Greenblum: 24:52

Can you tell us a little about your article?

Kim Clausing: 24:54

Absolutely. So, as you mentioned, it's called,"Five Lessons on Profit Shifting from the US Country by Country Data." And these data are new data that have been released as part of this OECD-G-20 initiative on base erosion and profit shifting. They suggested that countries collect this better data, telling us on a country-by-country basis where companies are putting their profits, but also where they have their economic activities. And so, this is a really rich, new source of data for investigating this question. So, what I basically do in this paper is comb through the data and we have one good year of data for the United States, 2017. It's complete. All the companies have contributed to that. And so, we can look through these data to figure out what we know about profit shifting and whether it fits with prior research. So, I look at five lessons here, and I think the lessons are fitting with some of the work I've done in the past. Looking at profit shifting, the first lesson is that havens are really important to this story. If you look at where most of the income is for U.S. multinational companies, especially the shifted income, it's in just a tiny handful of havens. And by havens, you know, most of these countries are either European countries— Switzerland, Ireland, Luxembourg— or they're affiliated with the U.S. or the U.K. So, we've got Puerto Rico and Bermuda and the Caymans and Jersey and Singapore also plays a role. So those kind of are the main havens. And if you look at those havens, they account for about$355 billion worth of profit in 2017. And they play a very large role in this profit shifting story. So that's the first lesson. The second lesson is that these profits are really disproportionate to the activity that those countries are hosting. So, if you look at some of the havens, there will be tens millions of dollars of profit per employee. And in fact, we see this very highly non-linear relationship between where the profit is and what the tax rate is. And I've got some nice figures that show that graphically. And that's an important lesson because if we're trying to guess on profit shifting behavior, looking at the shifting between two countries with high tax rates, we're going to kind of miss a lot of this story. Because most of it is going to these sort of rock bottom tax rate countries. A third lesson from the data is that really important to acknowledge that some companies in these data sets are earning losses and that can in fact distort effective tax rates if you're looking at the data aggregated by country. Because you'll have companies with losses in the denominator of the effective tax rate effectively, and that will distort the effective tax rates in your estimates of what's going on in these countries. And I explain that in more detail in the paper, but one of the really nice things about these new data is it lets us separate countries with profits from those losses. And then the final lessons are, I think more policy relevant. The fourth lesson is that profit shifting is costing the U.S. government a very large sizeable amount of money. I look at this several different ways using both data series, but also using many different methods. And almost every method in every data series that you look at unequivocally suggests a very large problem. And my best sort of back of the envelope guess is that it's, you know, in the neighborhood of a$100 billion or a little more in terms of the total cost to the U.S. government from profit shifting. And this includes both U.S. multinationals and also scaling up for foreign multinationals. And a final lesson is that relatively modest things like the minimum tax can really affect these incentives and reduce profit shifting a lot. And I have estimates in the paper that suggests, you know, something like what Biden has proposed with the 21 percent minimum tax rate can actually generate a lot of revenue. And that's consistent with what the Tax Policy Center analysis found, too. They find over 10 years that 21 percent minimum administered in a per country basis can generate about$700 billion in revenue. And I've got both a sort of a lower bound and upper bound estimate in the paper that go from about$430 to$770[billion]. So that does imply a lot of revenue for the U.S. government if they want to take this problem seriously.

Ariel Greenblum: 28:56

What led you to write about the topic?

Kim Clausing: 28:58

Yeah. So, I think this topic is important for a couple of reasons. One, there's some confusion in the literature about the size of this problem. If you rely on accounting databases that just look at operations in non-haven jurisdictions, you get a much smaller sense of the problem because you're not— typically multinationals, the game isn't really to move the money from the United States to Canada or something. It's usually to get it out of both the United States and Canada into places with these really low tax rates. So, in some of the databases, you don't get a good picture of the haven operations or it's completely missing from the data. And therefore, you can't really get a good sense of this problem. So, the nice thing about these data is it's yet another series that we didn't have access to before. It has a much more detailed— countries are included, you know, so you get a much bigger picture of this. And while we don't have a time series, which is too bad, we do have this ability to compare companies with profits and companies with losses. And so, I think we get a nice, clear picture that sort of confirms what some of the literature has been saying, but also sort of clarifies some of the weaknesses in other parts of the literature. But, of course, the second reason is because it's a very policy relevant area right now. The OECD and other countries through the unified framework are looking at possible policy solutions to this type of profit shifting. And many governments themselves are considering this question, including potentially an incoming Biden administration. But also, governments throughout the world are sort of asking what can we do to make, you know, capital taxation work, given that we have such a global economy. And multinational companies are very challenging because they're quite mobile. So, you want to be sensitive to that when you design your tax policies, but you also don't want to let a big chunk of GDP go entirely untaxed. And so, that's why coming up with solutions to this problem is really important.

Ariel Greenblum: 30:42

Thanks very much, Kim. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you online?

Kim Clausing: 30:47

Absolutely. So presently, I'm at Reed College and you can find me at the Reed College economics department website. But as you mentioned, I'll be moving to UCLA come January. And so, you can find my web presence at the UCLA law school website. I'm also on Twitter at@ KClausing. So all those places will work.

Ariel Greenblum: 31:06

You can find Kim's article online at taxnotes.com on November 9. And be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at Tax Analysts for more in-depth discussions on what's new and noteworthy in Tax Notes. Again, that's Tax Analysts with an S. Back to you, Dave.

David Stewart: 31:25

You can read all that and a lot more in the pages of Tax Notes Federal, State, and International. That's it for this week. You can follow me online@TaxStew, that's S-T-E-W. And be sure to follow@TaxNotes for all things tax. If you have any comments, questions, or suggestions for a future episode, you can email us at podcast@taxanalysts.org. And as always, if you like what we're doing here, please leave a rating or review wherever you download this podcast. We'll be back next week with another episode of Tax Notes Talk.